Stephan Livera | SLP388 Meron Estefanos — Bitcoin, Human Rights & Refugees

Link to the YouTube (the timestamps are based on this): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kq0X0HA9Jc

Stephan Livera: Meron, welcome to the show.

Meron Estefanos: Thank you, Stephan, for having me.

Stephan Livera: So Meron, I know you have a very interesting story, and obviously I had the chance to meet you recently at the HRF Oslo Freedom Forum and we were chatting a little bit about Bitcoin and what you’re doing with it as well. So yeah let’s hear a little bit about you and what your story is?

Meron Estefanos [0:24]: You know, I hate talking about myself to be honest! I am Meron Estefanos. I’m based in Sweden — I grew up here in Sweden. I came from Eritrea, originally, when I was a teen. So Sweden is my home, and I’m an activist. Then my activism led me into journalism, and together with other activists we started our own radio broadcasting into Eritrea — I have to tell you a bit about Eritrea. Eritrea is a very closed society. It’s often referred to as the North Korea of Africa — it’s a very closed society with maybe 2%-3% Internet access to the population. Everybody — between the age of 15–16 until you are 50 — has to do military service as part of your national service to the country. Since the country was a new country — well, it’s not that new — it became independent in 1991. There was a war to liberate Eritrea for 30 years — my parents were activists at war. My dad — because he was wanted — had to leave, so that’s the reason why we came to Sweden to begin with! And then, later, Eritrea was liberated — we got our independence in 1991 and everybody from the diaspora, we went home and we were celebrating, hoping finally now we have a country that we can call our home. I mean, when we were fighting for liberation, or for Eritrean independence, it was for democracy. It was for justice. It was so that no Eritrean would have to flee his or her country anymore. So we overcame one of the oppressors, only this time it’s our brothers and sisters that freed us — we had that pride. But later it just took like a few months for the guerilla leader — who now is our president — just five months after independence he said, That’s it! We don’t need democracy! We’ve never had democracy — it’s gonna take some time so let’s wait with it! And no one reacted! — those that reacted were already imprisoned the same year that Eritrea was independent. So, slowly — in 1997 — we were supposed to have a constitution. The constitution was supposed to be implemented — it was already approved by the parliament, by the people. So the president — because he didn’t want to implement the constitution — he started a war with Ethiopia, which led to endless slavery of the young people because the military service, or the so-called national service, decided that it was going to be a year and eight months to build the country after independence. But instead it became totally a militarized state where everybody from age 15–16 — it can take 30 years! My younger brother is another example: he went to the military at the age of 15 and he had to escape at the age of 35. Imagine: 20 years of your time in the military — no education, nothing. You’re just guarding a prison — that’s what my brother’s job was — until he got a chance to flee. So for this reason many Eritreans escaped from Eritrea: they felt, Rather than me being a slave of the state for 30–40 years — because they get discharged when they are 50 — so nobody wants to wait! So my people believe that fleeing is the only solution, and for this reason we have become one of the mass refugee producers in the world, next to Syrians. So my activism — when I became an activist — I had no clue if I wanted to become an activist or not! It was just: I decided to move back to Eritrea — I had no clue that it was a dictatorship. Once I got there, everybody was like, Did you get deported from Sweden? I said, No! I moved! This is my country! And everybody was like, Please: if you didn’t get deported — if you can leave the country legally — make sure you leave! And nobody was happy that I came back. You would expect after many years and returning that the only person that was happy was of course my mother, but the rest — everybody was telling me, Please leave before they do anything to you! And I didn’t understand because for me at that time it was just, This is the government that freed us from our colonizers — how is it possible that people are complaining so much? Because I’d never lived there — I never understood. So it took 2 years for me to open my eyes and actually understand what was going on in the country, because as a person that hadn’t done anything for the country, I had more rights than anybody just because I happen to have a Swedish passport that I can show whenever they stop me. While my younger brother would come for a visit once a year for 30 days and he has to show his ID — I mean, for permission to move around the city, you need to have that. And in every block that we go, the military police will ask us, Where is your permission paper to move around the city? And I show my Swedish passport, and my brother has to show his military release passport for a month, but if that expires then it’s automatically prison [for him]! So I’ve seen all my childhood friends and even women — the military service is for everybody, it’s not only for men — so my childhood friends were in a military for 15 years, some of them 16 years, and that just did not make sense. I kept thinking, That would have been me if I had not grown up in Sweden. That just could have been me — this could have been my life! And it woke me up, and at that time my son was a year and a half — he wasn’t even two — and so I decided, I don’t want my son to grow up in an undemocratic country, the way Eritrea was. So that was it! — I came back [to Sweden]. And when I came back I wasn’t deciding to become an activist, but I saw a lot of those that grew up with me idolizing the dictatorship in Eritrea just like me because we lived in the diaspora and we’d never lived there. So they started saying Eritrea is on the right track — everything is going great! They just became like the propaganda mouth for the regime, which I could not accept! So the more they started saying things that were untrue, I had to correct them by saying, No! I’ve been there! I just came back after living there for two years — actually the situation in Eritrea is this. This is what’s going on. And the more I told the truth, the more everybody was pushing me away, and then they started calling me a traitor — which, I had to look for other activists that told [the truth] like me, and so I joined university students that went to South Africa to do their masters, from Eritrea. They decided not to go back and they wanted to oppose the regime. So that inspired me and I contacted them and I said, Can I join your group? And so that’s how my activism started. And the same group decided to broadcast radio into Eritrea because you don’t have people that are using the Internet — the young people, until you are discharged from the military, you’re not allowed to own a cell phone. Because to have a cell phone, to have a SIM card, you need to show that you are discharged from the military, so that means no young person can use one. Even if you have a smartphone it’s useless because you don’t have Wi-Fi on it. The only reason people have smartphones is to take pictures with — nothing else! There is no use for it. So we decided: How do we reach the people? And shortwave — everybody can afford shortwave — so we said, Let’s do this, and I started doing radio from my kitchen in 2006, broadcasting into Eritrea. That’s where I’m talking to you from right now! Which led to: a bit later on, we started doing 24-hours satellite radio, where anybody can access us 24-hours [a day]. And so my program from discussing the dictatorship in Eritrea — I got tired by 2008 and said, That’s it! I mean, I don’t feel like I can reach my people because I’m fighting to free my people, but at the same time it felt like I’m too far away — I’m in Sweden. Is radio enough? And I start questioning my activism and myself: what exactly is it that I want? I’m not political — I’m not seeking to become a political leader or anything, but I like helping people. So I said, If I cannot reach the people in Eritrea, at least let me reach the people that are outside of Eritrea, because as I said, we are one of the most refugee producing countries. So I said, It’s the same thing helping Eritreans inside Eritrea, so outside Eritrea should be the same. And 2008, my whole focus shifted into refugee-related issues, so I started interviewing refugees that were stuck in Libya on their way to come to Europe. And at that time the European Union had paid Gaddafi to stop these refugees and migrants from crossing into Europe — which is basically the same thing now: history is repeating, which is sad. So at that time, basically it was the same thing: people were fleeing by boat, drowning. The only difference is: at that time, these refugees did not have a satellite phone, but from prisons they could smuggle in phones and they started contacting me. And what was supposed to be one interview became a lifetime work, and so suddenly my phone number became a hotline for refugees, where refugees who are imprisoned in Egypt or anywhere in the Middle East, they will find my number written on the wall! And they don’t know if Meron is a girl or a guy because I have a unisex name, and all they know is they would just say, We don’t know who Meron is but we found the number at the prison — or sometimes it could be refugees that are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea and so they would call and say, Please help us! After God, we leave our lives in your hands! Which I don’t want to, because we’re talking about 700, 800, 900 people in one boat that’s fit for 100 people. They are very overcrowded — they are doomed to die in a minute — and then you have the European bureaucracy that does not want to help people because helping rescue these people would mean taking them into your country. So I’m just left by myself trying to figure out how do I send them help because they keep calling and screaming, not realizing their situation. And I would always ask, Just give me the location and then call the Italian coast guards. And the Italian coast guards would say, No, call the Maltese — they are near Malta. And Malta will say, Call Italy! So sometimes it goes back and forth 7–8 hours until help reaches them. Sometimes the water is up to here — and people don’t know [about this]! That kind of cruelty — I hate the people that put them in a boat, the greedy people that are overcharging these people. We’re talking about: the poorest of the poorest come by boat — it’s not people that could buy a flight ticket or something. But on their way [by boat] these people are kidnapped, they are tortured for ransom. We’re talking about the poorest of the poorest people are extorted for $60,000 a person — sometimes it goes up to $70,000 a person — where we just have to depend on our community because these families cannot raise anything. I remember when I started [hearing about] the ransoms, when people started getting kidnapped and started calling me, there was this priest that I used to talk to — he was 36 and he was kidnapped. So the kidnappers, what they start doing is: because they know Eritreans are fleeing en masse because of the dictatorship, the kidnappers wait in Sudan, which is the neighboring country — that’s where we flee to. So right at the border, they wait for you and pretend to help you, to show you where the immigration is — where to ask asylum — but instead you are put in a traffickers car where you will be sold off to Egyptians or elsewhere, where you will be tortured for ransom for months and months. Sometimes it goes on for two years until the full money ransom is paid! So this priest, he’s one of the first group that I spoke to — 36, just fled because he served in the military for 18 years or something, so he got tired of the situation and decided to flee. And then he got kidnapped, taken to Egypt in the Sinai and he’s been tortured — his voice was very weak. He was tortured more because he was a priest and because the torturers are also [religious] — I don’t see them as religious, but they pretend to be religious enough and they would say they are Muslims that torture people, which was crazy [to me] — but this man, for being a priest, he’s being tortured more. So at that time he was really sick, and the other hostages one day called me and said, Sorry Meron, but the priest died. And I had just interviewed him I don’t know maybe an hour ago or two hours ago — I could tell that his voice was very weak. And they said, Please contact his family — we cannot call them. Because the traffickers, what they do is: when your loved one has died, they don’t let you know. They still charge you, and you believe that you’re paying to get him released — but he’s already dead!

Stephan Livera: Wow that’s horrific.

Meron Estefanos [14:50]: Yeah, so the hostages were worried and they were like, Please call his family — this is his family’s number, which they found. On a parquet it was written his family’s telephone numbers. So when I called that phone number, I asked for his sister. And so the person that answered the phone says, Oh it’s a village. Call back tomorrow at this time — I will have to send someone. Because it’s so rural an area that his family doesn’t even own a phone! So they send someone, and the next day I’m talking to someone who’s claiming to be his sister. And then I said, Oh so what are you guys doing for him? And then she explained to me: No, actually I grew up with him — I’m like his sister, but his sister is going around to the different villages and collecting money for his release. So his whole village sold everything they own — cattles, and some of those that had gold sold gold — and it still wasn’t enough. Because he was a priest he was highly liked and widely respected in the villages in the area because he was the only priest. So because the money that his village raised was not enough, his sister had to go to the second village, and the second village sold all they owned, and the money was $19,500. But she needed $500 more — that’s when this person dies. And she was already in the third village trying to collect the $500 left. So the reason I’m telling you this story is: that we are so poor that this guy left Eritrea to have a better life, but he got his family poorer than they were, he got his own village poorer than they were, and the second village, and the third village, but still they couldn’t even manage to save him! So this is how money is collected, often. And as a result of this, over 10,000 of my people died because they couldn’t pay ransom. For me, it became too much! I started raising money to pay ransom because I just could not understand — in this time — that there is slavery, that people are being tortured and chained, dehumanized in a very sadistic way. It’s not even about money, only, but it’s about humiliating: that they would force two best friends — if they see two men that left together and they were best friends — they would just force them to rape each other just to humiliate them so that they are not friends anymore. So that there is shame — that they could force a father to rape his daughter, that they could force a brother to rape his sister. Just — it’s just for fun [to them]. So we’re talking about one of the most cruelest things that I’ve ever heard in my life! And it totally changed my life as well because I could not understand that human beings can be this cruel! So basically, this is my activism and this is what I do. I’m sorry I spoke too long.

Stephan Livera: Yeah, no no, that’s really good context — very horrific context in terms of what is happening, to people who are just trying to get freedom. It’s probably like really ethically challenging as well, because in that way where you’re thinking about, Well do we pay the ransom? Then we’re sort of funding these traffickers and slaver types. But at the same time, if you don’t pay the ransom then these people are just stuck. And so I guess it’s also a challenging thing because the person who’s leaving and trying to go out of the country to have a better life — are the other people in their town or their village begrudging them trying to leave? Or are they saying, No, go out and try to get freedom?

Meron Estefanos [18:44]: I mean, parents don’t tell you to leave. No child tells his or her parents that they are leaving — nobody does! So when you escape, it’s not planned — like, I’m gonna go in three months this way or that way. It’s just: the second you get a chance, you flee — there is no preparation. No one tells their parents, often. So the traffickers and the smugglers are so creative — what they do is they tell these young people, Oh, you don’t have to pay now! Zero down payment to get here! But you pay us once you are closest to the last destination. So every parent — and all of us, the people that live in diaspora — we tell our loved ones to wait wherever they are, that we will find them a legal way, a safe way. You know, if you pay like $30,000, you can get someone here — as long as there is money! Either through fake passports — or there are different means. You can marry someone for $30,000, for $25,000, and get a full status to any country you want! But these young people know that the process to get to Europe safely will take years and years and years, because they’ve seen those that left before them — it has taken years for them — so they just want to take the risk! They will tell you: I would rather die trying, than dying under this dictatorship, because they feel it’s a dictatorship that you cannot penetrate because this time it’s our own that are oppressing us — it’s not outsiders. And this time they know us — they speak the same language as us. And this time the government has in each house an informant: your brother could be an informant! You don’t really know! Because to survive, everyone has turned into an informant — your mother could be an informant just so that she could survive, also, so that she can get food from the government. So they give rations for those that are informants. They give you permission papers to move around because you are an informant. So there is a privilege being an informant — for this reason, no one trusts anybody. So everybody hates the government. Everybody would love to do something about it. One thing the government is good at is throwing [around] these mistrustful rumors so that one doesn’t trust the other and things, so for that reason the diaspora is trying [to help] — but I don’t believe that the diaspora will ever free the people inside. And the people inside — there is no young people — you need young people to revolt. All the young people are kept in the middle of nowhere with no media, no Internet — they have no clue what goes on! Sometimes I get amazed, because we are neighbor-to-neighbor: I get phone calls from Eritreans that actually flee to Yemen because Yemen is our neighbor. So you’re like, Yemen is — right now? I mean, people are fleeing from Yemen for how many years? But sadly, my people — because there is no information, there is nothing that they hear about [Yemen] — so of course these people just flee to wherever they find and then they are stuck in the middle of the war in Yemen between the Houthis and the others! And you’re like — you don’t really know what to do! You always say, But why would you flee to Yemen? And they say that Yemen is the closest from where I was militarized — of course the only place to flee is to Yemen. So, for my people: revolting like the Arab Spring or elsewhere is going to take time. Unless our mothers and grandmothers start doing something — protesting — I don’t see that happening anytime soon. And the dictatorship is being emboldened on a daily basis because of the refugee-related issues — like, the European Union and others are supporting these tyrants that are oppressing us as well.

Stephan Livera: Very sad to hear. And so what’s your focus today? What stuff are you working on in this area?

Meron Estefanos [22:56]: So after listening to so much cries of the refugees, I just got tired. I said, That’s it! Because I’ve cried enough for the 18 years I’ve been doing this and I said, That’s it! I’m not doing this anymore! So now I hand down the traffickers that did all of this — I don’t accept phone calls anymore and I already have young activists doing that.

Stephan Livera: Yeah. And I guess just for context as well: about how many refugees did you end up helping?

Meron Estefanos [23:28]: I mean, it’s a lot! Just in the Mediterranean alone — I don’t like to talk about it, but over 20,000, probably. That’s just the sea rescue. But there are hundreds and hundreds that I paid ransom for to rescue others from elsewhere as well. But I don’t think about numbers — I never think about that, to be honest!

Stephan Livera: Yeah. Well that’s — I mean, that’s a lot! So yeah you were saying nowadays there are other people who are helping in what you used to do?

Meron Estefanos [24:04]: Yeah, exactly. So, young activists that I inspired later, when I decided to retire from radio and from talking to refugees on the phone — I didn’t want to just leave a void so that there is no one so I had to train a young activist, [inaudible 24:22], she’s also a former HRF foreign speaker. So she created a hotline — together we designed it — where there is always someone 24-hours that will answer it through Whatsapp, Facebook, or different means. So that means people will reach them anytime. So I’m happy with that! And then I just started focusing into researching about these traffickers — who are they? Where is the money going? Who’s behind them? So I started collaborating with different authorities in the world like police departments in Europe, the US. From all over the world, different prosecutors and police are coming and asking for information, because when you’re talking to refugees you have so much information. And then I understood, Aha! Okay, these traffickers are wanted so I can collaborate, even though I hate what Europe is doing at the same time because they are blocking these people so that there is no safe way to get to Europe. On top of it, the European Union — the so-called European Union who are supposed to be champions of human rights — is actually now financing the coast guards that are the smugglers themselves! They are financing to keep them — whatever it is: do whatever you want to, beat them up if you want to, humiliate them if you want, as long as you don’t do it in European waters. So, often people talk about Black Lives Matter — we see the brutality in the US — but Europe is more brutal towards blacks and browns rather than the US, actually! It’s just not that visible because people don’t care when they see 200 Syrians dying in Greece or 800 Sub-Saharan Africans dying in the Mediterranean Sea on their way to Italy. It has become [such] a common scene that no one even thinks about it. But it’s our governments and our tax money, and that pisses me off as an European citizen as well. But having said that, at the same time I do work with them because the people that are exploiting and abusing these refugees — the traffickers — are wanted by many European countries and also African countries, Asian countries, Americans, you name it, most of them do come to me and we collaborate because I know more about the traffickers than they do because I’ve been keeping information for I don’t know how many years! So now I have researchers in different countries that investigate these things for me — and that’s where Bitcoin comes in!

Stephan Livera: Fantastic! And so maybe at a high level: have you had any success with going after traffickers? Or information that you provided went on to later help stop these traffickers?

Meron Estefanos [27:22]: Oh, yeah! We just had — two years ago — identified over 50 [traffickers] in one country and so we got 3, and 4 in another country, so we got a total of 9 people get arrested. But throughout the years, probably 20–25 traffickers with my help. The US has arrested two big traffickers before, and it was with my help because they had no clue [about] the person’s real name or where the person was living. So by providing the right location and things, many get arrested. There are too many! It’s not even — one person hasn’t been arrested. And also you have the people that are behind [the scenes], because often we have the known smugglers and traffickers, but there’s always a high level person on top that’s protecting these people. And that’s why I do most of my research, is trying to figure out who is higher up? And where is the money going? And so it became a lifetime dedication for me because I’ve heard so much cruelty — I had to notify so many mothers that their sons have died, even though I have never met their sons! And I feel like someone has to pay for it! I mean we cannot just say, Okay the Europeans and others don’t care because we are Africans — that’s why we are left with ransoms, or there is no other option and that’s why we pay ransoms even though we know it encourages the traffickers. But it’s not nothing! In the same place, we’re talking about in Egypt — Sinai — when my people were kidnapped there, over 10,000 at one time, at the same time there were 2 Americans kidnapped in the same area and the US got them out within 48 hours! We don’t know what they did, but they got them out — that’s the point. But at that time, for my people — nobody cared! So at last, what do you do? You just say — even though it’s wrong [to pay the ransom] — you just say, I cannot let a child [suffer], because when a 2-year old child was being tortured, I just couldn’t! I decided, I have to pay. And so when you don’t have an option, you do it.

Stephan Livera: Yeah, that’s sad. But it’s also good to hear that some of the information you’ve helped provide has helped lead to stopping some of the traffickers. So, maybe if you could tell us a little bit about your approach nowadays with the researchers and what you’re doing? And maybe also where you’re using Bitcoin?

Meron Estefanos [29:57]: So as I said, I have researchers in Ethiopia, I have researchers in Uganda — many places in Africa — that do [this]. Basically, my research is always about human trafficking, following the money, or exploitation of refugees. So these researchers — especially those in Ethiopia, for example — Ethiopia is becoming like an Eritrea. It’s becoming like a dictatorship — it’s an early stage of dictatorship. But there is a civil war, there is an ethnic cleansing going on, there is a genocide happening in Ethiopia right now. So it’s dangerous to be an activist in Ethiopia right now. And just associating with me could mean a death sentence to many. And it has happened before, where over 200 people that were in contact with me were arrested and sentenced for over 10 years just for having contact with me. So it was always difficult sending money. You know, I used to use my friends to [send] it, because if I send via Western Union, not only is it expensive but your name is recorded, and that person needs an ID. So it was always difficult, and I had to send using hawala. And the hawala system is that you give someone money here and then they give money to your family, or to whoever you’re sending. But there is no guarantee with it as well! You just give it to someone you don’t know hoping that it will reach your family — and it normally does — but anything can happen. But we’re talking about people sending $100,000 through hawala systems, and so at any minute — anything can happen! And I’ve heard stories of people disappearing with your money. So, when I took the HRF Bitcoin workshop, the way it was explained at the workshop just made sense, even though I’ve attended hundreds of Bitcoin workshops before, but I never paid attention — or it just didn’t speak to me, maybe! But when HRF did the online workshops, we had miners from Venezuela explaining why they started mining, why they are using Bitcoin, and how it helped their community — and also, when you’re fighting against dictatorships! It just clicked to me and I said, Yeah! I mean, to take the dictatorship’s power you just have to take their money, and that’s where it hurts the most! And not only [that], but it frees the people as well, because in Eritrea, if you have a million dollars in your bank account, you’re not allowed to take more than $200 a month. And for a businessperson it’s $500 a month — that’s it! Even though you have millions in your account, the governments decide how much money you’re supposed to take out. Let’s say I want to get married? And I have enough money in my bank account, and I go and I say, Oh I need $100,000 because I’m going to get married. And they actually sit down with you — do the budget for you — and say, How many people are you inviting? 50? Okay, this should be enough for 50 people! From your own money!

Stephan Livera: They take that level of control over your finances?

Meron Estefanos [33:24]: Yeah, exactly. So most businessmen, they prefer to keep their money outside. But exchanging money in the black market just doesn’t even exist! I mean it exists, but the government controls the black market as well. There is no free person that can exchange money because the government will find out within a day or two — they have informants all over the place, and people are arrested for exchanging money. Or if you are caught with cash — more than the $200 that I told you that you’re supposed to take out in a month — there will be questions: Where did you get this cash? And you can get arrested as well. So it’s a scary place to be! So after taking the HRF workshop, it just made sense. The Lightning wallet was so interesting to hear about! And right away I started using it and I decided: Let me teach my researchers the same way that it was taught to me! I gave the same workshop to my researchers in Uganda, in Sudan, in Eritrea, and in Ethiopia — suddenly, it became so easy for them as well, and right away I sent $50 each to every one of them. And they were so happy! They just went to Paxful and exchanged it and got back the money that they needed. It was fast, and they had the option of keeping it in Bitcoin or exchanging it. But what’s the best of all is that the government doesn’t even have to know that these people got paid or that it’s from Meron or anything! So I loved it, and I started giving workshops for refugees in different places. So what I do is between 10–15 refugees at a time: I give the same workshop that was given to me by HRF, except it takes them more time because these people are not technical — some of them have never even used a phone in their life. Some of them have never seen a computer in their life. The HRF workshop was a 2-day workshop — so I give like a 5-day workshop sometimes because if they don’t understand it, I just have to do it again and again until it makes sense to them and they can start using and receiving money. So now it’s it’s working great! And I translated The Little Bitcoin Book into Tigrinya — into my language — that has helped a lot as well. And now possibly I’m thinking of mining somewhere in Africa — I’m discussing about that as well, so we will see what happens! But right now I’ll be in Africa myself on the ground helping single mothers. And of course, the NGO’s going to be integrated into Bitcoin where my NGO will be teaching skills to single mothers — I’m a single mother myself. I know how hard it is to be a single mother. And especially for the child, because when you are the son or the daughter of a single mother in a poor country, that means you’re doomed! You have nothing! So I felt like this is where I want to focus, and teach them skills to make them owners of their life so that they can have a business that’s integrated to Bitcoin. We’re designing it — it’s a headache right now — but hopefully in a few months we’ll be up starting! And hopefully in four or five months we’ll have set up the mining as well somewhere in Africa.

Stephan Livera: Fascinating. And so when you are teaching a person about Bitcoin, what sort of tools and things are you teaching them?

Meron Estefanos [37:21]: I mean, just explaining the whole blockchain system to begin with — how it works. And then often the question is: But where do I buy Bitcoin? I’m like, No, I’m not going to tell you where to buy your Bitcoin — I’ll just explain to you how it works but I’m not going to say go to Coinbase or Binance or this or that! So, often it’s that kind of question, and worry about what if the value goes down, and I always try to explain to them, But it will always go up! Because it was worth this much this many years ago and now it’s worth this much. But unless you think of it in the long-term, but I try to tell them: as long as you’re [now] saving, it doesn’t really matter to them if Bitcoin is up or down — for the refugees. But I do give — like it’s very secretive and things — but I’ve given [workshops] to at least 40–50 businessmen as well, because these are the only people that can leave in and out. So for the refugees, it’s a way of just accepting money via wallet — we use BlueWallet and Muun Wallet, but for the businessmen, it has become something powerful! They just couldn’t believe that there is this option! And as I told you: our government has been like choking them to death for many years. I mean, even the rich people are not safe in that country! So now, at least, many of the businessmen have learned about Bitcoin and they start keeping their money in Bitcoin outside and where the government doesn’t have to keep their money. So for me, the businessmen are more interesting, because these are the people that hold the cards inside Eritrea — for the refugees it’s just a life-saving tool that they can access within seconds, and often the reason I teach refugees is because no refugees have an ID. Often when they flee, they flee with nothing — even if they left with their ID or passport, they’ll always be taken by the traffickers before you get to your destination anyways. So for them it’s a life-saving matter! It’s like having an ID — for them, having a [Bitcoin] wallet is like having an ID, because they need an ID to receive money from relatives abroad because they live off remittance. So it’s life-changing for them just knowing this technology, how to receive and how to exchange it, or how to keep it. So they have learned all the basics and they’re happy! I’m happy with it. But as I said, I’m more excited with the businessmen because I believe they’re the ones that can topple the dictatorship.

Stephan Livera: Yeah, that’s really fascinating! And so as you were saying — and the last stat I’ve seen on this is that 1.7 billion people around the world are unbanked — and in many cases it’s because they don’t have a KYC document or an address, etc., that would allow them to get a normal bank account. But obviously with Bitcoin you can install, say, Muun wallet on your phone and you can now create Lightning invoices or spend in Lightning invoices. And whether you are a researcher in the different countries, whether you are a refugee, whether you are a businessman who wants to save a little bit outside the system, or potentially even if you’re a politician, it’s like: everyone is going to want to use Bitcoin! But we can obviously see a very strong use here from a human rights perspective as well.

Meron Estefanos [41:01]: Yeah, it’s a great tool! And my only regret is that I didn’t get into it earlier!

Stephan Livera: As many of us do! So when it comes to a businessman who’s using Bitcoin — for them I guess, are you seeing them in a case where maybe they are even paying suppliers with Bitcoin? Or is it more just like they’re using it more like their own store of value?

Meron Estefanos [41:27]: Yeah, they are keeping their money in Bitcoin, and also paying suppliers. Most of these businessmen go back and forth to Dubai, so I had to go to Dubai so many times just to meet them in person and show them in person. So, as I said, these are the only people that have money, and these are the only people that are suffering because they cannot even touch their money, so why should they keep it inside [Eritrean banks]? Whatever they can, they try to put in a bank because they are forced to! If you don’t put a little money in your bank, the government will start asking: How come you haven’t deposited your money? But at least most of their money now, they know how to keep it and how to receive it, how to spend it or how to save it and how to buy things with it. They order a lot of stuff from China and elsewhere because they do import and export — they do mostly importing, so some of them are using Bitcoin if there is a way to [pay for] the things that they are looking for. Not everybody uses a Bitcoin payment system, but where they can they do. So they’re really happy with this! And the reason I go in person and meet them is so that they can do the same thing to those that are not allowed to flee from Eritrea — to leave Eritrea. Because to have a passport from the age of 5 until you are 50, you have to be discharged from the military, so nobody younger than a 50-year old can can have a passport to begin with! So, many of the businessmen inside Eritrea, they cannot even leave the country! They depend on these people that import stuff. So the people that import stuff, these are the only ones privileged enough to go back and forth, and so that’s why my focus is on them — these are the people that can reach on a daily basis and teach it to those that they trust. And it works in the country — in Eritrea — it’s often mouth-to-mouth the rumors go, and everybody wants to learn. And The Little Bitcoin Book was already smuggled into the country, but everybody shared the PDF with everybody they know. So I believe, slowly, more and more will hear about it and more and more will use it, even though as I said: the Internet penetration is like 3%. But still, those that leave [Eritrea], they will find a way to give others money — they always do! And that’s why my focus is on those that are able to go back and forth.

Stephan Livera: Yeah, interesting. And also, from a privacy perspective: now, privacy is a complicated topic because it’s all about who are you trying to be private from as well. Now, it’s also fair to say that Bitcoin is not necessarily private by default, but depending on how you use it, you can be private with it. And it allows you to also receive money just outside of the standard fiat system. So from your perspective, and from your discussions with the people you’re speaking with, have they been able to be private with Bitcoin? Or is that not a concern for them? Or what’s the situation there?

Meron Estefanos [44:36]: I mean, so far it’s private — the government is not even focusing there, as I said. As long as they control the Internet, they will manage to control everything that you do within the country. But those that are able to leave — at least when they’re outside of Eritrea — they can access whatever it is that they want! Or they can send money, receive money, and do a lot of things with it. But when you are in the country, it’s just: there is no privacy, because you have to go to the Internet cafe, and when you are in the Internet cafe, the computer is registered to your ID from what time until what time that you use that computer, and where you work, and ID number, and all that — too much questions! And if you have to buy mobile data, it will be registered under your name when you buy it as well. So there’s not really privacy. And another thing that I’ve been working on is: there’s a way to give Internet to Eritrea — to my people. I’ll need one million dollars to do that, but there is a way where you can send Internet via a satellite dish. So anybody that has a satellite dish can download free Internet. So I’ve been working on this for many years, and it’s a dream that I really want to do. And somehow — hopefully, one day — I’ll raise that money and give my people the Internet that they deserve. And then they can use Bitcoin or anything that they want — just like us! So the only thing keeping my people from using Bitcoin is the Internet penetration. So, obviously we will solve that!

Stephan Livera: Yeah, right. And yeah that’s really interesting! So I guess the typical privacy wallet tools that people talk about in the Bitcoin world — things like Samourai Wallet, JoinMarket, Sparrow Wallet — some of these tools are probably not accessible to people inside Eritrea, but are obviously accessible to the diaspora, the people who are outside. Or even just simple phone wallets like Muun Wallet are accessible to people in the diaspora, or researchers you’re working with. As an example, if you’re running a crowdfunding operation where you’re receiving some sats, then you can pay to researchers who are on the ground helping you with your work. So, essentially, is that part of how you’re running the operation?

Meron Estefanos [47:01]: Yeah. Right now that’s what I’m doing. I haven’t received any, but HRF donated last year for this project so that I would be able to do [this]. And so what I use the money for is just as an incentive to the refugees so that they can take the workshop seriously — it could be 4 days, 5 days, as I said — so at the end, when they are done with it, then I give them $50 worth of satoshis sent to their Blue or Muun Wallet. But, then they decide [what to do with it]!

Stephan Livera: Yeah, sure. And are the workshops operated — you’re doing those in Africa? Or are they in Sweden?

Meron Estefanos [47:43]: I’m doing it from Sweden, but now starting next month I’m moving to Africa, so I’ll be living in different countries in Africa and I’ll try to move around and do this in person. But I’m going to do it to teach it to single mothers — to those that have nothing! So I want to focus next on trying to find some kind of Bitcoin-related solutions to these single African mothers that go through all kinds of hardships. So I’m talking to so many people and taking all kinds of advice from different people on how I should do it and which way you should do it, but also I’ve looked into lands where I could mine [Bitcoin] and things as well, and spoken with Alex Gladstein about it. And we will see where it goes, but there is a plan! I’m thinking about it! And hopefully after a few months I’ll come here and say, Oh I’ve started mining as well!

Stephan Livera: Yeah it’s really fascinating what you’re doing, and I think listeners will really appreciate hearing your story. So for anyone who wants to keep up with what you’re doing, or follow you, or support you, what’s the best place for them to do that?

Meron Estefanos: I’m active on Twitter — I don’t use social media that much, but I’m very active on Twitter. So you can always find me on Twitter: @meronina.

Stephan Livera: Fantastic. So, listeners — I’ll put that in the show notes. And Meron, thank you very much for joining me. I really enjoyed chatting.

Meron Estefanos: Thank you for having me!