Bitcoin for Beginners, by Luc Flynn and Nathan Perry
Link to the YouTube: https://youtu.be/zF-eZm19h6U
Nathan Perry [3:53]: Today we are doing Bitcoin for Beginners. We’re gonna jump back for a minute, because we talk about Bitcoin on this podcast a lot, and I really want to walk through Bitcoin as if you knew nothing, and start it from where I believe people should start learning it from. This is partly because we have new people to the podcast, I hope to have new people in the future, and I think it’d be very useful to have this background, especially how much we talk about Bitcoin. In addition, I just like the idea of having this episode that I can share with people who really want to understand it because I get questions about Bitcoin about once a week from someone new pretty consistently. So it seems like a good idea just to do a whole episode on nothing but Bitcoin, and we’re gonna walk through a lot of the basics. Think of it as a auditory FAQ with a long summary monologue in the beginning as we talk about what Bitcoin is. But with that being said, I think the first part to start with is: what is, in fact, Bitcoin? Like, what is it? So the best way to understand Bitcoin, in my opinion, is that Bitcoin is money. It is money, you could call it a commodity-based money like gold, perhaps like salt used to be, but it is money. And if you understand Bitcoin as money, it becomes a lot easier to understand everything about Bitcoin. The longer you take to understand that Bitcoin is money, the longer it is for you to understand Bitcoin as a whole. And, weirdly enough, I went through this thing in 2017 where I was trying to understand it — I owned a little bit — but I really didn’t understand what Bitcoin was. And it wasn’t until I really understood that Bitcoin was money that my understanding of Bitcoin really took off, and on why it was so much better than all the other cryptocurrencies out there. So I think it starts with the fact that Bitcoin is money. But that gets into a bunch of fundamental questions you and I have had, and we’ve answered a few times on the podcast, about our understanding of money. And I think the average person couldn’t even tell you what money is outside of the fact that it’s something they use to go to the store and buy things. So let’s make some definitions first. First, there’s fiat money. Fiat money is money issued by the government that’s not backed by a commodity. So it’s not gold-backed — there’s not anything. Currently, the US dollar and pretty much every currency in the world right now is fiat money. It’s not actually backed by anything — they’re actually float against each other. And you can go out into the open market and buy gold if you want, but it’s not backed by gold — you can’t go into the US government and demand gold from them. They won’t give it to you. It is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. All that really means is that you trust that they won’t devalue the paper currency. So that’s fiat money, and that’s important to understand. I think the other word we need to define right now is monetization because I’m gonna use it a few times, or variations of it. And monetization is basically the process in which something becomes understood as money as by everyone, or by more and more people. So I would say that Bitcoin is going through the monetization process right now. Some of us like me and Luc, we understand it as money. There’s other people that understand it as money. But there’s a lot of people that don’t understand it as money. And so the process of people understanding this item as money is a monetization process. I think it’s important to understand that because a lot of questions about Bitcoin, such as, Are we afraid of volatility? and stuff, have to do with the fact that it’s monetizing. I assume that all makes sense. Luc, if you have anything to add, feel free to jump in.
Luc Flynn: I mean, it makes sense to me. But this isn’t for —
Nathan Perry [7:32]: — this isn’t for you. Well, if you have anything to add, feel free to jump in. So the next question is like, Well, okay, beyond that — what is money generally? It seems to be a tool that is an emergent human phenomenon. It’s emerged multiple times back since we were when we were evolving, and it seemed to evolve into a tool to solve a few different problems. But what are the problems that it solves? This actually relates to the three properties of money — the three ways that money is really used. And the first is a store of value. So the first way that money is used, the idea is that if I get a dollar, I can trust that the dollar will hold value down in the long-term. Say $1 is worth one candy bar — I can trust that in a year, I can still buy one candy bar. This is actually important when you think of — I think a good example is farming. In farming, you have your planting season, you have your harvesting season, and then you go to market and you get all your profit. If money didn’t hold its value at the time you got your profit, you’d have to buy all your goods for the whole year right then, and pay, maybe, your mortgage at the same time. Like, everything would have to be paid. But the idea that you can put it in a bank and trust that the money that you pull out later will still have value means that you don’t have to buy all your goods, all your groceries, pay all your rent or your mortgage at one time. So that’s the thing that allows us to do certain things where profit — our revenue — and our liabilities don’t necessarily line up at exactly the same time. Without that, we have a real problem with holding our value. So basically, our work today, think of a work weekend — you would never have a weekend. You would never have vacation because you’d be working all the time because all your work would be immediately worthless after that — it would only be for that time. So it’s the idea that it can it can allow you periods of not working or not profiting. So that’s one of them — the store of value, again. And then the next one is medium of exchange. I think it’s the most widely understood use of money, that it’s walking into a grocery store and buying groceries — it’s the idea that you exchange money for a good or service. And what problem does it solve? Basically, it solves the barter problem. Let’s assume I raise dairy cows, so I produce milk. If I produce milk, then what if I want to buy hay, but the person who sells hay doesn’t need milk or doesn’t drink milk? How do I get the hay? I have to find someone who drinks the milk who can give something the hay wants and I just exchange it. And this problem gets exponentially more crazy as we get more and more specialized. So as a practical matter — without it, you can’t specialize at all. And you will probably be raising a general farm and doing a little bit of everything because you’ll need to have a little of everything so that you have something on hand that someone else might want that you can exchange for if you need to. And then otherwise, if you can’t find it, then you can survive until you have something that they want, or come into contact with someone who knows someone who knows what they want. Or someone who knows someone who knows someone. So all of that goes away when you have a medium of exchange — you can just use that item, that money, to exchange for the good or service. That’s another one of the ways that money is used. The other one is unit of account. And this is basically used as a measuring stick. The way I think of it is: how do you compare how much of a house is worth how much of a car to how much rice to a cow to anything you buy at your gardening store to whatever else? You measure it by how much it costs in dollars, effectively. Or how much it cost in money. So that’s the unit of account — the fact that we know the price of a plane ticket in dollars, how much it’s relative to how much of a car, and even among different cars. Lamborghinis to Civics are very different — that is the unit of account. Those are the few ways that money is used. That seems to be why we have it. That’s why humans have developed this as a tool to solve all of those problems. And what it really allows for is human specialization, so that I can focus on one thing and do it very, very well, and trust that I can still survive in a world where I only do that one thing. So in my case, I’m a tax attorney — I can focus on being a tax attorney — and I don’t have to learn how to be a farmer in addition to mechanic in addition to anything else. Like, I can do one thing and do it very, very well. And this, as a process, allows for all of the things that really make life enjoyable. Like I mean, art — art can’t exist without a unit of account, a medium of exchange, a store of value. We wouldn’t have art, we wouldn’t have really funky architecture. You would have a pretty boring life in a lot of ways. You certainly wouldn’t have a Game of Thrones or anything like that. Like, all of that would go away if we didn’t have the tool — money. So all the things that you enjoy really exists because we have money.
Luc Flynn [12:46]: Because we couldn’t specialize, not because we couldn’t pay for it.
Nathan Perry: Yes, exactly — because we couldn’t specialize. A person like Aaron Sorkin, who used to write The West Wing or whatever else — I particularly love a lot of his work — he wouldn’t be able to be Aaron Sorkin. Like, he couldn’t write all those plays. William Shakespeare wouldn’t exist without money, because he would have had to go out and learn how to farm. Instead, he can write his plays and can be a genius. So these kinds of genius people — and that actually includes scientific genius: Einstein can’t be Einstein without money, and there are probably people that are equally as smart as Einstein who just didn’t live in a place with money, or money that was actually useful. And therefore, if you’re living in a hyperinflating place, you’re worried about how to make the next meal — you’re certainly not going to be worried about E=MC². These are not things you can think about if you have to make the basic subsistence level of survival. And the benefit is: this allows us to survive and thrive all via focusing on whatever we want to do. So money really is this really foundational tool to human existence, Okay, so how does this all relate to Bitcoin? So Bitcoin is not really used in all three of these ways. In very rare cases, it’s used as a unit of account. It’s much more often used as a store of value or, right now, recently, as a medium of exchange with the Lightning Network down in El Salvador and those places. But even there, the prices are really set in USD, and the Bitcoin price changes based on the price of Bitcoin. So why is this? I think it’s because it is going through the monetization process, as we talked about. And I would say Bitcoiners tend to believe that we have to go in that order: store of value, medium of exchange, and then unit of account is the last one. And the reason why is because it basically requires more and more people for that. Store of value, I need enough people to trust that I can sell it later for value if I need to. That means enough people are involved in the network. The medium of exchange means that I can trust I can walk into stores and they’ll accept it. And that means even more people are involved in owning Bitcoin or transacting in Bitcoin. And then unit of account is like so many of us have accepted it that we can all agree to price our goods in that. And it also, at that level, reduces the volatility a lot — it should anyway, we think. This is a relatively new experiment. I don’t think we’ve ever watched monetization of a global currency in real time, so what we’re seeing is very, very unique. And there’s a lot of theories around it. But that’s our best guess — I would say I agree with that theory, but we’ll see how it plays out. Precisely because we’ve just never really seen this before. Certainly a monetization of a currency within one lifespan is entirely new. Keep in mind, the US government currency wasn’t monetized this way. Originally they used gold and it was gold backed for a while, and then went off the gold back in 1971. So it wasn’t like it emerged or the government just started issuing it and we all started respecting it — it was that we already respected it. They held gold, and then eventually they actually had a soft default in 1971. An implicit default, as it were. And when they stopped redeeming gold — for the record, they only redeemed gold to other countries. It was what’s called, Closing the gold window, and basically they didn’t allow any other countries to come and redeem their gold. So that was pretty crazy. And that’s why the fiat currencies have never, ever emerged on their own. They were already backed by something, and then it went to fiat, generally because the country was spending too much. And they had to find a way to effectively devalue the currency to survive. And 1971 was not the first time this happened. Rome had the same problem, so it’s pretty common. And it has led to downfalls of societies or large governments. So it’s important that that’s kind of where we’re at.
Luc Flynn: And China, I think, had “paper money”, and they started writing paper money for gold that they didn’t have. And then we’ve just been doing that ever since. The gold is not necessarily special, but when you just start writing paper not backed by anything.
Nathan Perry [17:48]: Yeah, so this is not unheard of. And that’s potentially where we are. Certainly, that’s where I think we are. I think Luc probably mostly thinks that’s where we are, too.
Luc Flynn: Yeah it’s actually very well understood, but 99% of people don’t seem to understand that. Like, no one studies money. They don’t study history, so they don’t know that.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, so that’s where we’re at. But okay, that’s useful if Bitcoin can be used in these three ways, specifically the words we just talked about, which were, again, store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. By the way, I think it is accurately used as a store of value right now — that’s certainly way I’m using it, or at least over the long-term. What I mean by that is like, I have trouble believing it might be worth more in six months, but I don’t have any problem believing it’d be worth more in four years — that’s historically always been true for the entire history of Bitcoin. So I think it is actually being used as a store of value. I’m certainly not using it as a medium of exchange or a unit of account, really. But if it’s not being used, how do we look at it? How can we say it’s money if it’s not being used as money yet? I think that’s when you just have to look at the properties that have made for good money in the past and compare them to Bitcoin. So the first one is uniformity. The idea is that 1 Bitcoin is basically the same as 1 Bitcoin. This is unlike seashells where each seashell — which at one point was used as money — were different-sized, different colors and variations. You want uniformity for money. It’s much closer to salt, which was used as money at one point. One grain of salt is similar to another grain of salt. There probably are some variations we know from Himalayan rock salt and other stuff, but basically one was equal to the other one. Certainly this is true of gold — you can have a uniformity of gold. And certainly it applies to dollars — $1 is equal to $1. And we have it with Bitcoin. So that’s one. The other thing: it’s infinitely divisible. So divisibility of a money is very important. This is why you don’t use Picassos as money. They may be rare, they may have a lot of properties that money would have, but you can’t divide it up into things. However, you can divide $1 into 100 pennies. Gold can be divided into smaller and smaller bits if you really want to. It’s true of grains of salt. In our case, for Bitcoin, the protocol allows for divisibility up to one sat, which is basically seven zeros and then one at the end. 0.00000001. And that’s a sat. But we can update the protocol at any given time if we really want to divide it even further without debasing anyone’s holdings. So we could all just agree that we need to divide it even more and add more zeros beyond the decimal place and divide it up further. So the fact that it’s infinitely divisible — when I mean infinitely, we can update the protocol if we had to, but it’s also very, very divisible now — is very important for money. The other thing is it can’t be counterfeited. You can’t create your own fake Bitcoin. You’ve had counterfeit gold, you’ve had counterfeit dollars — that can’t be done with Bitcoin. You can’t go out and make your own. You can hard fork it if you want, but it won’t be treated as Bitcoin. We saw that with Bitcoin Cash. So you can’t make fake Bitcoin. Another one is: it can be verified if you run your full node, which only cost a few hundred bucks in parts, and then about the price of running a coffeemaker for a year in electricity. So it’s very cheap to verify your own transactions and verify that the Bitcoin you’re receiving is real. This is not true with gold — gold is very cost prohibitive to prove that it’s actually gold. You have to run the chemical tests and stuff. It’s not easy, and cost prohibitive as a result. But this is not true for Bitcoin. So you can literally be your own bank and you don’t have to trust anyone — you can just do it yourself. The other thing is it’s weightless. This is unique to Bitcoin, or at least unique to Bitcoin and anything that’s not cash. I mean, it’s very similar to the US dollar that you keep in your bank account. You carry around and if you know on your phone — you don’t even need your phone, technically — and you can carry as much as you want around, so it’s weightless. Also, relatedly, it can be transported with you by just memorizing a string of words — a seed phrase. So as little as 12 words will get you done, and you can literally carry your entire net worth in your head. This is unlike anything else we’ve ever had, including dollars. It’s simply unique to Bitcoin. I guess other cryptocurrencies have it as well now, but we’ll talk about why Bitcoin is better than all of the other ones. But yes, Bitcoin was the first time in the world where you could just memorize a string of words and carry your net worth out with you. So that’s entirely unique to Bitcoin. This is what’s really important, obviously, in cases of authoritarianism when you want to run from the Nazis, if you’re in the Nazis, you had to smuggle out your gold and try not to get caught, which may get you killed or at least all the gold stolen — all of that can be solved with Bitcoin. It can be sent to anyone who has access to the Internet, so it’s effectively global money. Certainly as we’ve added Internet accessibility through satellites and we keep furthering that, it’s only to become more and more accessible and more and more global. And anyone with access to the Internet can do it. I think this is also where we should probably note that Bitcoin really doesn’t really work without the Internet. Technically you can and it will survive if the Internet went down because it’s actually up in satellites, but this is really about its usefulness — without the access to the Internet, it’s not particularly useful. Without smartphone ubiquity, I don’t think it’s particularly useful. I think you really need both of those first before you had Bitcoin, and certainly before it achieves global ubiquity, and now we have both those things. So, barring an apocalyptic scenario where everyone loses access to Internet, Bitcoin should survive, and you should be able to re-access it again. And again, this is also about like, What are you trying to prevent? Like, I’m not worried about apocalyptic scenarios — I’m much more worried about debasing the currency. So yeah, that’s one. It can be sent instantaneously with the Lightning Network, which is a second layer protocol. And by the way that’s final settlement — or almost final settlement — and it can be settled on the main Bitcoin blockchain within minutes. Previously, international settlement took weeks or days, and occasionally it had problems. This is truly unlike any other transfer method we’ve ever had for global settlement. And Bitcoin is really just the base layer. So technically, a block should take 10 minutes. They say after that process, you have to wait one hour to be 100% sure. This has to do with the fact that it can’t be double-spent. So in order to show you the double-spend problem, imagine that I have a transaction at the same time, but two different miners solve the problem at exactly the same time and posted to their to that block — then what happens is the protocol waits until one chain gets longer and that settles within an hour. And then the longest chain becomes the true Bitcoin chain — the other one gets thrown out. Any transaction that was processed on the shorter chain but not in the longer chain gets thrown back into the mempool and processed a little bit later. So that’s how it prevents double-spending, which is basically two people claiming the same amount of Bitcoin to pay two different people. It’s also why it takes up to an hour to settle. But that’s really not that long. Imagine if you send multiple billion dollars? It’s not a big deal to wait an hour for final settlement, and you usually pay five bucks to do it. And the next one is: like the Internet itself, Bitcoin is fully decentralized. Nobody’s in control of the protocol, and no sole person and any change to the protocol won’t affect the Bitcoin network unless at least 51% of the network agrees. You’d probably have a hard fork then if it’s only 51% to 49%. But it makes it very hard to change Bitcoin. And why is that important? Increased decentralization means two things: increased security and increased fairness. So it makes it harder for anyone to attack Bitcoin or control Bitcoin or for the government to come in and issue subpoenas against people or force people to do things that change the protocol. The other thing it does is it increases fairness. More wealth of Bitcoin doesn’t lead to more control of Bitcoin. And this is very unlike fiat currencies or other cryptocurrencies. Pretty much no other cryptocurrency is as decentralized as Bitcoin, which is one of the reasons I strongly believe Bitcoin will survive all the other ones. A lot of the other ones act a lot more like companies — Bitcoin does not. We don’t even know who the founder is. Satoshi Nakamoto — we know that, but we don’t know who that person is. We don’t know if that person is still in the community. If they’re in the community, they’re not [known] under Satoshi Nakamoto, but they’re under their real name, so that means there’s just no way for the government to come after someone with influence or shut down one mode of access. They’d have to shut down all the different on-ramps, and that’s pretty much impossible without every country doing it together. And this was pretty much tested during 2017: during the blocksize wars, one group wanted to increase the blocksize. The other side did not, mainly because they thought it would increase centralization forcing people to run — as I said, I can run a full node for a couple hundred bucks — I’d have to spend a lot more money to run a full node. And there are a lot of reasons not to do that. It would also put the control — this was basically driven mainly by people at companies like Coinbase who wanted to do this. And this whole idea was that Bitcoin was for the users and not for companies. And in the end, we had a hard fork, and Bitcoin Cash is worth almost nothing now — it may even be worth nothing. Bitcoin is worth $46,000 or something right now as we speak. So one has clearly won. So Bitcoin has just really been tested really hard and has won, and it’s gonna be very, very hard to change Bitcoin in a way that hurts Bitcoin. Then we get to some of the most important stuff: the protocol sets the exact amount of Bitcoin to ever exist, which will be 21 million Bitcoin. And at the same time, it uses something called the difficulty adjustment to maintain an average 10-minute time between blocks being created. This means that we know, effectively, when the last Bitcoin will be mined, which is 2140. And we know that every four years or so the block reward will kick in, and the amount of new Bitcoins created or mined will reduce in half. This means we basically have lossless money — it’s the first time in history we have that, because we have a fixed rate of inflation. Even gold does not have this characteristic: it has a fixed amount of gold in the universe, which is one of the reasons why it’s used as money historically, but if the price in gold doubled today, we’d have a bunch of people go out and decide that they want to be gold miners, and pretty soon you’d have more gold in the market and the price would come down. You can’t do that with Bitcoin. If the price goes up, you can have more miners come out, but within two weeks or so is basically when the difficulty adjustment kicks in. It’s based on the number of blocks, not technically the time. It looks at how easy or hard it is to mine Bitcoin, basically how fast it’s going, which is a question of how many miners are actually trying to do it, and makes it either harder or easier to keep that 10-minute block time at an average of 10 minutes. So the difficulty adjustment is wildly important, probably one of the most important things to Bitcoin and one of the least understood by people who don’t understand Bitcoin. And how important this is, because it’s the most certainty we’ve ever had with money. You can say, Oh, Bitcoins very volatile! You have to be certain [about price]. I go, You can also argue a Bitcoin is the most certain money, precisely because we know how much exist, we know when the last ones can be created, and we can be confident at how quickly it will be released — how quickly new Bitcoin will be created. This is entirely the most certain money when you look at it from that perspective. As I talked about earlier, it can’t be double-spent, so we’ll skip that. All right, I’m gonna stop for a second. Luc, do you have any questions? Anything to add?
Luc Flynn [31:36]: No, not right now. I didn’t know that about the length, so it’s basically like if they both claim the same block then it’s just like, Oh, well then whoever claims more blocks in the future — is that kind of how that works?
Nathan Perry: Yeah so basically when you mine you add it to a string, so some miners will work on one string and some miners are going to work on the other one, and in about an hour it checks to see which one’s longer, and that becomes the official Bitcoin chain and the other ones just drop away. And this was solved about, What is truth? What is Bitcoin? And there’s a really great article called Bitcoin is Time by Gigi where he goes into this. It’s like a super-philosophical piece about how Bitcoin operates, and it gets into some of the technicalities of how it works, but more specifically is talking about how Bitcoin is the first clock globally, because it actually maintains time precisely because of this, and he calls it — some people have argued that blockchain is not the right term — it should be called timechain precisely because of this uniqueness of keeping that 10-minute block statistically on average and then resolving it even when it has conflict, if somehow two blocks are mined at the same time. So there was actually a few months ago when we had a double-spend conversation: Oh, Bitcoin was double-spent — it wasn’t double-spent, it was just exactly this event happened and it took about an hour for it to resolve. But Bitcoin did in fact resolve it because Bitcoin has been programmed to resolve this exact question: What happens when two things are spent at the same time?
Luc Flynn: So I knew it had some problem, but I don’t know if I ever heard that it measures it, like it gives it to both of them and measures it. That’s cool. That’s the only thing I was like, Huh, that’s interesting!
Nathan Perry: Yeah I don’t really quite know how exactly that works, but I do know it does, so I can probably at some point figure out exactly how that works.
Luc Flynn: Yeah, maybe I’ll listen to that. I can understand technical specifics but I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting — I should look into that. So then if you’re a miner then you just never get your money? Or do you get your money and then it disappears?
Nathan Perry: Yeah it disappears — it gets thrown away. So all that money.
Luc Flynn: Oh, that’s bittersweet.
Nathan Perry [33:58]: Yeah. All right, given all of this, Bitcoin is only really used for store of value for most cases, maybe medium of exchange in El Salvador and other places, but certainly not unit of account as a general rule. But it does have all these properties, so why do people such as me find Bitcoin valuable? Effectively, we think it’s globally decentralized money that is natively digital and instantly transferable and, probably most importantly, that no person or government can control or debase it. This is hugely important, as we are seeing with the asset inflation in the United States and across the world — we can question how much it’s driven by supply issues, and we’ve had that discussion on this podcast many times, but certainly a large component of it is the fact that they are debasing the currencies. And so for all of those things that you want in life that tend to be scarce resources like houses or scarce services like a Harvard education, they tend to go up in price, and they have skyrocketed. The other one is healthcare. Anything that’s highly important and has some limited scarcity to it is going up in value, or anything that just is very valuable to humans and that you can charge a lot of money for. We would definitely see things like water going up in price if there weren’t government controls on that, but other things that are not scarce at all like a Netflix subscription may not see any of this inflation. And for the record, we are seeing it a little bit, but that’s why we’re seeing a big difference. But the point is: a lot of things that people really, really, truly value are going up in price, and a large part of that is definitely the devaluing of the currency. So, for the first time that can’t be done by anyone. So that’s just very unique to Bitcoin. I think that’s why we value it: we trust that all these characteristics, some of which are unique to Bitcoin itself and certainly all of these combined into one, is entirely new because it basically takes the best assets of gold, the best aspects of fiat currencies, the best aspects of digital fiat currency like the money that you send around in your bank account on your cell phone, combines them all together and then adds components that only Bitcoin can provide, and it makes this thing that we just think is so much better than all the other money we have. So we’re kind of trusting that other people will see this value too and start buying it, buying into the network, and the price will slowly go up, especially as the supply shrinks based on that halving that happens every four years where the new Bitcoins are reduced. We believe those two things will drive the price up. Okay, with that being said, there’s a bunch of Bitcoin concerns — I listed a bunch. Luc, if you know of any ones that people have asked, ask us and let’s get them done. But first I’m gonna let Luc answer some of these because I know he knows some of the answers. So Luc, I heard Bitcoin was attacked — is it secure?
Luc Flynn: Yes it is secure. It’s funny, I was just listening to a podcast recently and the guy was interviewing someone from the US. The NSA invented something called SHA-256 and it is an encryption method, and that’s what secures Bitcoin. So no one knows how to hack SHA-256. Maybe the USA knows how to hack it — maybe — but they don’t have like a key to it because it’s just very complicated. So no, you can’t hack Bitcoin. It’s very secure. It uses the most heavily-secured encryption that we know, so someone has to break that. So no, Bitcoin is not hackable and it is secure.
Nathan Perry: Yeah. And specifically, this is about Bitcoin the main chain. Lightning Network is also very, very secure. But the things that could be hacked are your hardware wallet if you’re not careful with it, exchanges — so there’s ways for people to get access to people’s Bitcoin. There’s also the old-fashioned hack of taking a crowbar to someone’s knees, but to hack Bitcoin itself — the Bitcoin blockchain — it’s never been done. Highly unlikely. Perhaps it could be done once we have quantum computing, but if quantum computing can hack Bitcoin, it can hack pretty much everything else on the Internet and we’d have a lot more problems than just Bitcoin. So that’s also worth mentioning, I would add. And importantly, they’re already working on crypto security for Bitcoin including having hashes for public addresses, which prevents them from using a quantum computer to find someone’s private keys. And by the way, that’s pretty standard now: if you’re on Bitcoin now and you transfer on main chain, that’s going to happen. The very old stuff, that doesn’t exist, including a Satoshi’s one million coins. So if someone breaks SHA-256, the first thing they might do is start spending Satoshi’s coins. Presumably they won’t take it all out because they won’t want to crash Bitcoin, but I could see those start to move. And that might be the first inkling we have that SHA-256 has been broken. But again, Bitcoin itself should still be relatively unhackable because you still have limitations on how quickly you could hack it. And except for when you move coins if you’re under a hash when it goes into mempool, we don’t expose the public key now. So it’s even more secure than it used to be, so that’s important to note. Next question: Bitcoin is volatile! Doesn’t that scare you? I’ll say mine in a bit — Luc, you say yours.
Luc Flynn [39:58]: No, it doesn’t scare me. The S&P500 is also volatile in the short-term, but if you zoom out and you look at it over the long-term, the S&P500 has only gone up just like Bitcoin. And it’s only been around — not as long as the S&P500 so you can only zoom out so far, but volatility is not a bad thing. If you understand how to invest, which is: Only invest money you can “lose”, invest for the long haul, don’t day trade, time in the market, not timing the market, then just buy it and hold it, and over time it’ll go up especially because of what Nate explained earlier with the halvings. No, the volatility doesn’t scare me, because even if the price goes down — this is something a lot of people I think misunderstand about investing, but — if the price goes down, it doesn’t matter if you don’t sell. You didn’t realize those losses, so just wait. The price will go back up.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, and I’d add to that: there’s other things about Bitcoin’s volatility. First, you don’t get returns without volatility, so we want the volatility. It’s the price we pay for the outsized returns we get. And if you look at Bitcoin from its lowest on each year, it’s still gone up. So just wait four years. What I would say is: if you’re putting all your money into it and it’s money you’re gonna need in one month, the volatility should scare you. But if it’s money you don’t need for a year, I feel pretty comfortable. If it’s money you don’t need for four years, I’d be very comfortable. Six months is about where I’d be a little bit worried, so I do try to keep some money in fiat that I have to pay for my rent and stuff like that. I’m really throwing in my cash flows that I don’t expect to use for four years into Bitcoin. It’s long-term savings, is a way to think of it, and that’s certainly for the time being until there’s enough people — basically when it starts being used as a unit of account or more actively as a medium exchange, we’d see the volatility come down and then it will be different. But for now it’s long-term savings, put them into Bitcoin, and then don’t worry about it, and that’s what I do: secure it, I move it into a hardware wallet — and we’ll get to that in a minute — and then I just don’t worry about it. So the volatility really doesn’t scare me. In fact, I want to see it, because if I don’t see it, I don’t think we’re going to get the gains we’re going to get elsewhere. So yeah, the volatility doesn’t bother me, but I do understand why it bothers some people. The other thing I’ll say is: if you’re older, then you will want to allocate less of your portfolio, likely — that’s another way to control this. The younger you are, the longer you can afford to wait for it to go up, as it were. But if you’re retired, you may need to live on certain stuff so you might put only 1% of your portfolio in Bitcoin, which I don’t think is unreasonable. Certainly there are people that I think, once you’re already rich, your goal is to stay rich, and at that point I really do think diversification is very important at that point. I think it’s less important when you’re trying to get rich. I have very strong opinions about that. But if you’re already rich, already wealthy enough, just get some money in Bitcoin, but you might not want to put all of it. And that’s one way to protect you from the volatility issue. So yeah, it does not bother me. Okay, if Bitcoin is too successful, won’t the government shut it down? After all, it’s going to try to attack fiat currencies.
Luc Flynn [43:16]: Well technically, they can’t shut it down. I guess it depends on what you mean by shutdown? Can they make it illegal? Yeah sure, but it’s anonymous and they don’t control it and no one controls it, so it’d be very hard for them to shut it down — very, very hard for them, unless they’re gonna like make us all criminals and they’d come and hit us in the kneecaps, like Nate said. They can’t really shut it down.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, I will tell you: one government cannot shut it down. The way you could totally shut all of Bitcoin down would be like if all governments got together and shut it down. But as we know, we already have different attitudes towards that: El Salvador just made it legal tender, China banned the miners. So it seems like it’s unlikely you’re going to have that coordinated effort.
Luc Flynn: Yeah it’s 1000x easier to store your Bitcoin overseas than store money overseas, so it’d be really hard to shut it down.
Nathan Perry: And the other thing I think we should look at is the United States. This is probably more specifically United States, often — this question — so let’s address that a little bit. I think it’s unlikely they’re actually going to shut it down. I think they’re going to regulate the exchanges more, make sure that people are paying their taxes, which is all fine and good, but as far as actually making it illegal if you own it — it’s like 100 million people in the world own Bitcoin, many of those in the United States. We have senators who own it, we have congressman who own it. And we have other state-level actions like Texas and Miami who are trying to attract Bitcoiners. So I just don’t see a complete crackdown on it like that. I would expect some regulation around exchanges, but a complete crackdown on Bitcoin — first of all, I don’t think it’d be successful even if they did it, and I don’t think it’s likely to happen in the United States. And I think every year that goes by makes it harder and harder to do it. And at some point I think they will have to embrace Bitcoin — I think that’s inevitable, too. And if it hits $10 trillion dollars and it crashes to $5 trillion dollars, they may be stuck bailing Bitcoin out. What that means is they’ll put more fiat units into it and actually support it, because at that point it will have systemic issues to other asset classes. And at some point they’re pumping Bitcoin in to make it alive, and then eventually we all switch over to Bitcoin and then they can never control it again, and they can never bail it out. So I think that’s actually quite possible too. But the odds of them actually shutting it down? I don’t think it’s possible. And even if they try to outlaw it and stuff, I just don’t think it’s gonna happen. So is it something worth keeping an eye on? Yes. Do I think it’s likely? No. So as of right now, as of September 8th, 2021, I’m not worried about it. Next question: Do you own any other cryptocurrencies, altcoins, including Ethereum? And if not, why not? First of all, I do not own any. I have my own reasons. But Luc, I think you own a little bit, so why don’t you say your bit first?
Luc Flynn [46:21]: Yeah, I own quite a few altcoins, if you will. I do own Ethereum and some others. Not near as much as Bitcoin, but yeah I do own a lot of them.
Nathan Perry: What percentage is Bitcoin versus the other stuff, do you think?
Luc Flynn: It’s like 90%-95% Bitcoin and then 5%-10%. I don’t know the exact number, but it’s like 90% Bitcoin, maybe 5% Ethereum, and then 5% scattered through other altcoins.
Nathan Perry: So even if you had someone who wanted to do altcoins, you would probably tell them to mostly load up on Bitcoin, is that correct?
Luc Flynn: I would say — yeah, it really depends on what they’re asking. A lot of people who are into altcoins are chasing scams and they’re chasing that quick money and they’re getting pumped and dumped over and over again. And if that’s what you’re trying to do, don’t do that! That’s not going to work. Buy Bitcoin and then — kind of what I’ve done — my strategy was building a portfolio of cryptocurrencies like people do with commodities and equities. You build a portfolio: if one goes up, the others go down, and if the other one goes up, this one goes down, and they build like a bundle of equities with commodities and things of that nature — I did that with cryptocurrencies through a lot of research, but most people are trying to buy altcoins to get rich quick. If you’re doing that, just put your money in Bitcoin and wait 5–10 years, or otherwise you’re going to get Logan Paul rugpulling you.
Nathan Perry [48:00]: Yeah, and I think that leads into why I don’t do it: first of all, I think Bitcoin is going to outperform all of them in the long-run. I think the other ones only add a little bit of attributes that are better than Bitcoin and they sacrifice decentralization to get it, which I think is the most important. I think the other ones can be changed a lot — we’ve seen it with Ethereum, they’ve changed their monetary policy a lot. Bitcoin’s never been changed. I think the monetary policy matters more than anything else, and certainly from a long-term perspective, that’s all I really care about. Ethereum I think has the best likelihood of any of the other cryptocurrencies to be successful, but successful is maybe a relative term, like it may be a success for 15–30 years, but I think Bitcoin could be potentially around for 500 years. Like, that’s the difference: Bitcoin, as long as it doesn’t get destroyed by some sort of thing like quantum computing, should last forever. And I’m not sure any of these other ones are built that way, in part because their founders stuck around and it was a little bit more like a company. Whereas, as we said, Bitcoin’s founder disappeared for whatever reason and ceded control over to the community as a whole — I think that’s really important. We did a really long podcast on this — I will add it to the show notes if you really want to jump into this question of why and why not, listen to that one. I’ll tell you it’s definitely not safe for work because there’s a lot of cursing right in the beginning, especially because I was drinking — we jumped in I think two or three beers deep when we were doing it because we were texting about it and we decided to jump on and do it. But I’ll recommend that episode if you want more thoughts on it, and our different attitudes towards it. But fundamentally, your long-term stuff should be in Bitcoin anyway, and I think it’s easy to buy Bitcoin and wait 10 years and not worry about the rest. And I think it saves a lot of issues. Now the next question is the environmental impact. We actually covered that also on a different podcast, but I’ll say right off the bat that I do not think the environmental impact is as bad as people say. There’s a lot of reasons for that. In part because it actually uses stranded energy, so energy that otherwise just goes to waste. Sometimes it in fact recaptures energy at the source of oil drilling, so if you’re drilling in oil you have to release methane gas, and you can either flare it — which is really bad for the environment — or you can use it for something as energy on the spot, and so now they have decentralized Bitcoin units that are sitting there and mining Bitcoin and actually using up that energy. And that’s much more environmentally-friendly than actually flaring it. So in some ways it’s actually a net good for the environment. We’re already seeing different changes within how people decide whether or not to have a solar or wind farm because they can now mine Bitcoin when usage is low during the day and then turn them off at night when they need all of the energy, and they actually make money. And that can actually change whether or not they’re running these more environmentally-friendly [forms of] energy generation. So I think it’s a lot less bad than people think. Also, the US military uses I think three times as much energy, the cruise ship industry uses twice as much energy, and none of these people go after them. And none of them are actually helping the world in the way that Bitcoin really is helping for people who live in regimes and places where they’re either in capital controls or their currencies are hyperinflating by double digits or triple digits. So I think it’s one hell of a lot net good better than a lot of other things that are using far more energy. And in some ways it’s actually helping the environment. So that’s what I’ll say, but I’ll post a link to the podcast. Luc, do you want to add anything to that?
Luc Flynn [52:08]: Yeah, the environmental impact is more a philosophy question. Bitcoin isn’t dirty — the way we generate energy is dirty. So instead of going after, Bitcoin why don’t you just focus on the way we generate energy in general for everything? Like, that’s the problem.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, and I actually think we’ve mentioned that in that podcast as well. If our issue is burning fossil fuels, then we should have a fossil fuels carbon tax or something like that.
Luc Flynn: Complaining about Bitcoin is being pennywise, pound foolish. Like, our entire world uses a lot of energy and global warming is a real issue and it’s bad, so fix that. Don’t worry about Bitcoin.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, and if you do it in an even way, Bitcoin will have to adjust just like everything else, and that’s not a bad thing. And Bitcoin is able to do that — it’ll either prove it’s usefulness as a carbon reducer or it’ll pay more money in a carbon tax if you want to do a carbon tax or something like that. That’s how it would work. And that’s how I think it should be handled, but I’m not sure why we don’t do it that way. But anyway, that’s what I would say about that, and I’ll post a link to that. It’s in the middle of a podcast — we discussed other things — we had a long, long conversation about that, and I really walked through a lot more citations and stuff like that. But it is largely not a big deal, or certainly not the biggest deal that everyone is making it out to be. Okay, technical questions — let’s get into this. A lot of people have a lot of technical questions about Bitcoin. They’re like, Okay, great. We went through the monetary implications — it’s money — we went through some of the concerns around it, but what is a wallet address and what are private keys in layman’s terms? And I think the way to think about that is it’s a combination of an e-mail and a password. But originally, they are generated from a one-way algorithm, specifically the e-mail portion of it — the public address — that part is generated through one-way algorithm. You create a private key and that spits out the public address by running it through the algorithm, and then if you have that public address, you can’t go back — it’s computationally impossible without quantum computing to go back to the private key. And this is, again, the SHA-256 — this is a 256-bit private key. How do you develop one? Well you can do it any way: if you wanted to sit there — and 256 bits means it’s ones or zeros — you could sit there and flip a coin and develop it and then you’ll have your own private key and you can run it through the algorithm and turn it into a public address. You can actually do this — I would not recommend doing it, but you absolutely can. It’s just math. So as a practical matter, what you’re probably going to do is get a hardware wallet and it’s going to help you set this up by running you through some options for the BIP39 standard, and we’ll get to that in a second. But fundamentally, that’s what it is. And how are private keys stored? We store them, again, on our hardware wallet. A hardware wallet doesn’t connect to the Internet and it allows you to sign the transactions, confirm that you have it, and then it sends to another public address — whichever one you put in. And I personally use a Ledger — there are other options: the Trezor, the ColdCard. I’ve heard good things about Blockstream Jade. I’ll post a link to my Bitcoin starter guide where I have links to a lot of these things, and any of the ones I list I’m comfortable with personally, I’ve heard good things, or enough from the community that I feel safe advertising. I own a ColdCard — I haven’t set it up yet, but right now I use the Ledger. Before I move on, anything Luc wants to add or ask?
Luc Flynn [56:01]: I mean, wallet addresses and keys are pretty simple. You might want to watch a few YouTube videos on it, but the number one thing: just make sure, if you’re using a wallet address — no matter what you’re doing — check it five times and make sure it’s right, because if you send something to the wrong address, it’s either gone to someone else’s address or that address doesn’t exist and it’s gone. There’s no bounce back like with an e-mail.
Nathan Perry: So I will tell you that most of the hardware wallet developers have added a function where basically it checks the blockchain and confirms that this address actually exists before it sends anything, and it will bounce back otherwise on the mempool and it won’t go out. But this is relatively new — it’s not guaranteed to be added to every miner and every hardware wallet, so you do not want to rely on it, but it’s certainly a lot better than before when no one checked. So the likelihood of this happening is a lot less, but I would definitely tell you guys to double-check — I agree with that — just in case you end up with a hardware wallet or a miner who’s not implementing those tools, because you don’t want to send it off into nothing. If you do, it’s a donation to all the rest of us who own Bitcoin. All right, so what happens if you lose your hardware wallet or forget your password? Or maybe the hardware wallet dies in a fire? So almost all hardware wallets, and certain other ones I listed, use the BIP39 standard. This is a seed phrase. This, again, will generate another one-way algorithm. It uses 2,048 words representing different numbers that are put into a algorithm that generates about a billion private keys and the corresponding public addresses — the 256-bit numbers we talked about and the corresponding public addresses. Most hardware wallets will walk you through it. And by the way those words can be reused, so you could use the same one over again. This is using more cryptography to generate more things, and the benefit of this is now all you need to do is memorize this seed phrase and you’ve got yourself protected. Most people as a practical matter will not memorize your seed phrase — I would not recommend remembering it. I wouldn’t even recommend writing it down on a piece of paper. What you want to do is: there are a bunch of different seed phrase storage tools. The Coldkey is one that I have right here: it’s a recovery seed back up. You search for Amazon, you’ll find them. A lot of them are steel or titanium, and you engrave them or use something to write them. And by the way, each one of those 24 words are unique in the English language where the first four letters are different so that you only have to record the first four letters of those 24 words. So you’ll take the first four letters and write that down on this little storage device, and you’re gonna throw that storage device in something that will survive a fire or other things. I tend to recommend — this is where a classic bank is useful and you put it in the security deposit box. So that’s what I would recommend: security deposit box, throw it in there after you do this, and then only send money after you’ve recorded this seed phrase so you can recover it if you need to. That’s how you’re gonna recover it. And the thing is, you can get any hardware wallet that uses the BIP39 standard — you don’t have to get the same one. So assume the company goes out of business — find another one, they run the BIP39 standard, you’re good to go. You can do it and you can recover it. Don’t enter the seed phrase anywhere on the Internet — please don’t. Don’t save it on the e-mail — anywhere it could be hacked, if someone can get it, they can get it, they can grab their own hardware wallet, run it through, grab all your money. So this is entirely offline — please don’t enter it on the Internet or flash it or anything like that. Anything else to add there, Luc?
Luc Flynn [1:00:28]: I don’t think most people are going to do that, but you should probably do it.
Nathan Perry: So Luc is a big proponent of holding it on an exchange. The problem with holding on an exchange — and I’ve warned him before — is that if he loses access to the exchange, if he’s the reason the exchange gets hacked, it’s almost never covered by insurance. Now if the whole exchange gets hacked, insurance might cover it. And again, they’re gonna pay it out in fiat dollars — they’re not gonna pay it out in Bitcoin. So it may even be fiat dollars at the price they lost it at, which may take five years to resolve. So I’m not sure I want to trust that. So those are the risks. But as a practical matter, it is harder, but it’s actually less hard than people think, very much less hard. My 73-year-old mother figured out how to do it — I mean, a little help from me.
Luc Flynn: But people use 1234567 for their passwords — like, this is way hard for a lot of people. They’re like, What?
Nathan Perry: Yeah, but I’ll tell you: my 73-year-old mother with my help figure out how to do this.
Luc Flynn: It’s not an age thing, it’s just a lazy thing.
Nathan Perry: Yeah, I agree with that — that is absolutely true. But I think the real answer is how much money do you have? $1,000? Maybe an exchange is not really a big deal. But you start to get — I mean, for me it’s a substantial part of my net worth that’s in Bitcoin, so as it gets larger, you definitely need to take secure steps. In fact, I wouldn’t say it’s the first step — first step is to get on an exchange, buy some, as it gets larger, get your hardware wallet and take pains to secure it. It’s certainly not the first step, but it should be a big one once you have a significant portion either in dollar terms or in net worth terms — I would take pains to secure it. All right, so another question is: What is a full node? And how is it different from a mining rig? Because I get this a lot. So I have a full node — I don’t have a mining rig. They’re different things, obviously. A mining rig is doing all the transactions, it processes the new transactions. So first of all, it’s trying to solve a cryptographic puzzle and it’s basically like asking for a prime number or something like that and then you have to guess until you find it. Once you find it, you solve the block, you run your transactions through that block, they get paid in the reward for it — which is the new Bitcoin, it’s called the block reward or block subsidy — and they also get paid all the fees in it. And that’s what they get paid for having solved that parcel and processing transactions, and as a result, all of these guys together are securing the network, so they also get paid effectively for the security of the network. That’s what a mining rig does — it’s way different than a Bitcoin node. So what we do is we verify those transactions, so when the mining rig sends it out, we confirm it, because these puzzles, if you have the answer it’s like jumping to the back of a textbook when you’re doing your math problems — it’s very easy to do it, you confirm it, you run it through, you’re like, Oh yeah, that’s it. And so we confirm that it’s right, we add it to the blockchain, and now we have our own copy of the blockchain. And the benefit of this is I can run my hardware wallet through it, this gets even more security — again, not the first thing to do. This isn’t even the first thing to do after you get a hardware wallet — it would be like you get a hardware wallet first, and then you get this later. And you hook your hardware wallet into it and now I can guarantee that when people are sending me transactions that it’s actually being processed. If you’re using a Ledger or something, you’re trusting their node that their data is accurate for the blockchain — now I can trust my own node, I can look at it. If you’re going to do this, I highly recommend Umbrel. It’s a very easy open source community. It also adds a Lightning node on top of it which is more useful for medium of exchange transactions as we talked about, and I think a lot of Bitcoin exchanges are going to be using Lightning as well, and it’ll offer both a Lightning wallet and a Bitcoin main chain wallet as well, so it’ll provide both of those. But effectively, I can go in there and look at any transactions in the whole history of the blockchain. It takes a few days to sync, if you do run it. So it’s different than a mining rig, it’s a lot cheaper, and it’s used to verify transactions. Where do I buy Bitcoin? Okay, so the most popular one is Coinbase. I’m not a big fan of it — higher fees. A general rule is it’s less if you’re doing Coinbase Pro, but if you’re doing Coinbase, the normal one, it’s very high fees. Those fees subsidize all these other what we call shitcoins or altcoins to be nice, and I’m not a big fan of it as a result. Swan Bitcoin is fantastic if you’re gonna dollar cost average, especially if you want to daily dollar cost average. That’s very low fees. I think if you get over $47 a week or so it’s 0.99%, so slightly less than 1%. Another great option now is Strike — that’s even less fees, like 0.3% fees but it has a limitation of how much you can put in per week and it’s got a waitlist. So Swan may be a better option for the time being, but within a year I think Strike might be the best. You could also do it at a Cash App — cheaper than Coinbase, I believe — very easy if you already have it. It’s a good spot. Another option I’ve liked is River Financial — often they come with a free I think [$10,000] worth of buys you can do first thing and no transaction fees, so if you come into a lot of money you can do it quick, it’s a really good place if they can give you that offer. Kraken is another option, very similar exchange to Coinbase. I think better fees though. One I would certainly not do is Robinhood — you can’t take your Bitcoin out of that. The other one I probably wouldn’t do is PayPal — for now you can’t take your Bitcoin out of it, I believe. At some point they’re going to fix that, but until you can take custody of your own Bitcoin, I do not believe you should buy Bitcoin at that spot, because at some point, the other benefit of moving it onto your own hardware wallet is you guarantee that you actually have it — you guarantee that what you have is not just an account balance that actually doesn’t represent real Bitcoin. So you always want to go to custody your own Bitcoin as an option. At some point you probably will do that if you get enough of it. So don’t do Robinhood, and don’t do PayPal, at least for now. The other options — up to you which one you prefer. Outside of the United States, I’m not entirely sure. What about retirement accounts? If you want Bitcoin in your retirement accounts? Okay, so one option is if you have a self-directed ROTH IRA or you can self-direct your own stuff and you can hold it directly — that’s a little harder, but a lot of people are inclined to do it. Also, if you have a 401k with your company, you certainly can’t do it. So there are a few other options depending on the rules of wherever you have your retirement account. So one option is if you can buy at Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. So this is a company that holds Bitcoin on your behalf. The problem is they charge a 2% fee which means they’re selling Bitcoin to pay that off. They’ll still make more money than that at the time. I own some in my retirement account. The symbol is $GBTC. By the way, they also have other trusts — some that are more diversified if you really want diversification to the altcoins. Most of them are still heavily in Bitcoin unless you pick one that may be like Ethereum-only, and I could see why people would do that. Again, I don’t know anything about Bitcoin long-term, so in a retirement account I certainly wouldn’t recommend it, but it does exist if that’s what you’re looking for. Another option is Microstrategy. Microstrategy is a publicly-traded company that is very heavily invested in Bitcoin and basically has committed to putting all of their cash flows and future cash flows into Bitcoin. As a result, it trades very closely with Bitcoin but it’s a premium, I believe, to Bitcoin to how much Bitcoin you’re going to have, but as far as getting the gains out of it for a long time, they’ll probably track each other pretty heavily. The symbol for that is $MSTR. Now I’m gonna give you one other option: this is a mutual fund. This is how I got into my 401k and it’s called the Internet Fund. It’s WWWFX. Again, high fee. The real reason though is almost one third of their fund is in Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, so effectively if you put it in there you get access to a bunch of companies that are on the Internet like PayPal and other things — Google I think is in there and stuff like that, but also one-third of it is in Grayscale. That’s how I got a lot of my 401k to have at least some exposure to Bitcoin, and that is one option if you can get that. And the way I had to do that for my company was go through the brokerage link account to set that up through Fidelity which allowed me to take some money out of my 401k that was with the company and move it into a separate Fidelity account, and then I could buy a mutual fund. And I still got all the tax advantage stuff because it’s still part of my 401k. So that’s one option. It’s called the Internet Fund, and again the symbol is WWWFX. Okay I have a favorite resources on my blog — I will have that. I’ll update it, because a lot of my thinking on this is not mine and should be really understood that other people have done it. I really love Bitcoin is Not What You Think It Is on Bitcoin Audible by Guy Swann — it’s one of his own things. Bitcoin Audible also reads a lot of the best Bitcoin write-ups, or you can read them. Again, we talked about Bitcoin Is Time — you can read it or you can have it read to you by Guy Swann, that’s another option. And I really like that podcast a lot. I also have like other ones — Bitcoin Fundamentals I like a lot. There’s a lot of good stuff out there, and I would not stop here. This is really designed if you haven’t really heard anything and you’ve got some FAQs. And I really do want to credit all those other people there. Michael Sayler has been thinking a lot, Preston Pysh has impacted my thinking a lot. So a lot of these guests on these other podcasts, and Gigi just writing fantastic things, as I said — so yeah, I’d definitely check all that stuff out if you want to. The Bullish Case for Bitcoin is a fantastic book as a primer. It originally started as an article but now it’s a book. It’ll go through some of the risk as well as the way to think about Bitcoin. And I think we did a lot of it here, but it certainly impacted my thinking a lot as well. It’s a pretty small, short book, too, so that’s one thing I would recommend.
Luc Flynn: Thanks everybody. We will see you next time.